Sunday, February 12, 2012

sweetness in salt Nip Ji Yuen & Sing Suet

Transferred some relevant discussion posts from asianfanatics Ji Yuen & Sing Suet thread
My thanks to Akazukin (have her permission for repost) and others for such an engaging discussion thread.

Akazukin: Does anyone think that it would have been better for Stevia to make a better impression in viewers' heart if they showed the story from the time they were together before the soldiers broke into the Tavia's salt village? I mean, it doesn't have to be long. One episode is enough to make an impression of what they were like before their sour and bitter reunion in Yangzhou. I think if they had shown it in a proper episode, I would have felt more for them rather than having the flashbacks.

Tamaya: I personally like how it started. I like the anticipation of this one mysterious Yuen. Their lovey-dovey scenes will just dilute the excitement of opening episodes. 

Akazukin: Well, perhaps AOD previews and media coverage of the series ruined it for me because I don't find his character that mysterious since I know before the series starts that he was the spy that got into Tavia's village to uncover their smuggling activity. Somehow I think they can still start off the mysteriousness of his character if they had shown what happened in Tavia's salt village, someone who seems so loving, good-natured, and innocent, yet feels that something is off with his unclear identity somehow. I was kinda imagining by the end of the episode, the soldiers already broke to the village. But that's just my opinion.

Tamaya: Agree on Yuen's inconsistent behavior but I don't question his love for Suet.
Not to convince anybody but to expand on my thoughts on that scene:

"why just left her fighting for her life when they were attacked."
Tamaya: 1. Hopefully latter flashbacks or scenes will enlighten the viewers on what actually happened during that time. If the script cannot come up with a good reason that will absolutely, positively convince most viewers as to why Suet would in the end forgive Yuen and accept him as her husband, then it has failed miserably in its job, hence ensures the failure of the series, too - no matter how exciting the ride has been. The ending has to wrap up all loose-ends, hopefully it will.

"Is it not more powerful to be in Yuen's family since he's part of the government official?"
Tamaya: My answer to it is an unequivocal no, but that is not the main reason why Yuen can't and won't marry Suet besides the very obvious reason that Suet hates his guts.

Let's not talk about Yuen's own black and white conscience, which he must get passed before even considering marrying a lawbreaker's daughter. Yes, he should not have fallen in love with her in the first place. But in this case, despite himself, his heart overruled his head - a win that I'm sure didn't come easily. Be that as it may, there are practical reasons as to why marriage to him will not be feasible.

- It is exactly because he is a law enforcer that he must not break the laws that he has so stringently upheld. If he did so, he will lose respect for himself and without that, he will not be the person that he is. Being the kind of man he is, elopement is out of the question -  he being a filial son, a conscientious godson and possessing a black and white mindset 

- Yuen's family is humble, subsisting on their family soya sauce business and Yuen's paycheck. By no means are they rich or prominent, unlike the Hus who are wealthiest family in the city. Therefore his family has no power, political or economic to protect Suet. On the contrary, if found out that he is harboring a fugitive, the punishment on him will be even harsher and swifter. 

- Sure he has a powerful godfather whom he can appeal to, but his conscience will not let him drag his 'honorable' godfather into the mess. Being the kind of person he, he would rather die than do that. Above all to him, gratitude and filial obligations are much more important than his personal affairs.But this is a moot discussion any because it all boils down to the fact that Suet hates his guts, and he is who he is. In the released promos, Hin did have political clout to protect Suet.  

Akazukin: Actually... about marrying Suet off as a mean of saving her... I thought as a matter of law it doesn't matter whether she marries a wealthy one or not. If the punishment of salt smuggler is only applicable to the whole family, then when Suet marries to another family, her surname will be changed to her husband's and she is no longer considered as the family member of the salt smuggler. I believe that was the law at that time, unless of course the offence punishment warrants death sentence for the 7 generation ties kind. Then, they will have to rely on power to free Suet and even the Wu Family (for having marital ties with the salt smuggler) from the punishment or conviction.

All in all, I think Yuen is pretty capable of protecting Suet. I don't think he won't marry Suet because she is a lawbreaker's daughter because after all, he has breached the law by releasing her and suggesting the marriage as a mean of escape. If there wasn't Hin who loves Suet, will he be willing to marry her, that is provided that she is willing to marry him? I think it all boils down to the fact that he knows Suet hates him now for causing the death of her parents.

I also hope there will be more flashbacks to explain Steven's behaviour during Suet's close escape from the soldiers. But shouldn't expect much since I have a feeling that there will not be enough episodes to tie all loose ends. Not everything were explained by the end of SG either.

Tamaya: Yuen definitely got a big dose of reality check, his perspective on life will definitely change. That clear conscience of his is now muddied with regrets and guilt for what he did to Suet. That pain in his heart must be debilitating whenever he sees Suet. And sees her he did when he went after the salt smugglers. What's the chance of it happening?

And even under such hairy situation, Suet could not resist complaining about his going to the brothel. lol! It lowers her opinion of him even more. But despite herself, the thought of him carousing with the "ladies" must have bugged her a lot, because that incrimination just popped out of nowhere. And like the viewers, Suet is also confused by Yuen's inconsistency towards her.

Yuen has always cared about Suet but now he is beginning to see her point of view. But it will take a while, quite a while, before Suet will come around to understanding Yuen's past behavior. As yet, she does not know about the upheaval in his life, so she is very suspicious of his actions based on her past experience with his duplicity.

I don't understand you, one minute you're good to me,
then you're bad to me. Next you visit the brothel!
What are you trying to do?

That brothel thingy just popped out of her mouth. Haha!

Suet: What are you trying to do?
Yuen: This is neither the place nor the time to discuss this!

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Yuen's most fervent wish is for Suet to have a good life.

Yuen: Don't waste Hin's affections towards you.
Have a good life with the Hus.
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Yuen's inconsistency puzzles Suet.

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"Tamaya:  That brothel thingy just popped out of her mouth. Haha! "
Akazukin: tamaya, this is really an insightful post. It's great that you pointed out about the comment she made about him going to the brothel. It's clear that deep down inside, she is jealous but doesn't want to admit it and tries to convince herself that she has nothing to do with her because she is not going to end up with him. And I also really enjoy Steven's reaction of saying that isn't the right time to talk about it. It's just so cute. It's like he wants to explain himself to his little jealous girlfriend but they really haven't the time at that moment.

I thought him telling her to not waste Hin's affection is a bit inconsiderate to Sing Suet though. I would feel hurt if I were Sing Suet. But that's so just Ji Yuen, with the lack of considerateness despite his sincere love. But I also see from his point of view that he knows there is nothing that can convince Sing Suet to leave besides Wu Ting Hin's name.


Tamaya: When Yuen firmly declines the arranged marriage, and boldly declares that he's in love with someone, I applaud him. But when he professes his love to SS, I thought what unbelievable nerve, not to mention insensitivity on his part. Yes I love you, but I must destroy your life and that of your parents and compatriots; it's my job and duty to my country. BS!

It seems he is more concerned that SS does not misunderstand his love for her is true rather than worry about her state of mind over the death of her parents and his betrayal. Naturally, that lady is in no mood to hear him talk love, much less love that destroys her world. She craves blood and seeks an eye for an eye retribution.

Yuen professing his love to Suet. Suet is surprisingly calm and collected.
Yuen: You heard everything I said.

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Yuen: I just want you to know that. (his love for her is true)
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Akazukin: I agree with Tamaya that Ji Yuen was being rather insensitive to Sing Suet for declaring his love to her while she probably doesn't think that will ease her pain. But it all come down to Ji Yuen's character. Though intelligent and courageous, Ji Yuen as I see him is a dumb/naive and insensitive person. He is too straight of a person that I sometimes think he forgot to move his eyeballs to see his left and right or even back. He can only see one way straight. He is rather insensitive for not finding out his adopted father's character. I think the adopted father hinted to him that no one can be fully conscientious. He is insensitive to the voice of the citizens. One day, he was scolded for arresting an old citizen for selling smuggled salt. But I'm sure this scolding and citizens' voice doesn't start to exist now but has always been there but he has been insensitive to it until now after someone (Yiu Sau Zheng) pointed to him again and again. So after all this being his first love, he is also insensitive to Sing Suet.

Moreover, at that time, I think he can't really understand how Tavia feels. He understands that she is mad at him for causing her parents' death but there is a discrepancy in their belief. Steven thought he did no wrong because Tavia's parents are lawbreakers. He is one man that holds law so true to his heart that if his parents did wrong, he would choose law over them. This is apparent in his attitude towards his adopted father. He refused to help him although he refused to betray him either. But not betraying him does not mean that he will blame the person that would take his adopted father to the justice. Things are different in Tavia's mind which values moral more than law and is able to differentiate them from the start. In Tavia's mind, Steven is wrong in every way, not only the outcome of his action (ie. her parents' death) is wrong, so is his way (pretending to be someone they can trust), so is his intention/motive (for an unrespected law).

So I don't really blame him for confessing to Suet at that moment. It just shows he cares for her, even if he has done it wrong. He wants Suet to know the truth about his feelings even if it yields no fruit. I think it's because he thinks Suet has the right to know the truth so he told her.

I really love the scene where they fought each other in the rain. It's so beautifully acted out by Stevia. The tears in Steven's eyes and the tears in Tavia's eyes, both carry a lot of messages. I can totally feel the complicated feelings and torture in their eyes. Great chemistry! 


Tamaya: Got thinking:
Re-Yuen not being overly concern about Suet's safety: Here are some hints to the contrary:
From the flashback, during the attack on the camp, Yuen seems frantic and reluctant to leave when Suet made him. It's like he's torn between leaving and staying. Don't think he was pretending then but he still left in the end. Duty over love. That he accomplished his mission successfully regardless, smacks of a very strong mind, even if it was one-track.

He seeks out Hin immediately to make sure Suet is taken care of. Who knows he might have being looking for her ever since getting back home. Just wasn't shown. I want those flashbacks.

Akazukin: Yuen seemed worried when Suet told him to leave and wait for her in Yangzhou but it didn't assure me that the extent of his worry is enough to such danger obviously facing Suet. I agree that benefit of doubt should be given since we never have his flashbacks of what happened during the time he was separated from Suet. But he also didn't have a tint of worriness cross over his face when his foster father and his acquitances commended him for his "successful" operation.

He going to meet Hin is a show of his caringness for Suet, but it's not the same as worry one would/should feel when a loved one is in danger of death.

Tamaya: Yeah, I know my defense for Yuen's show of concern for Suet's safety was weak. Blast those elusive flashbacks!

"No matter what Steven does, I don't think Tavia should accept him again."
Akazukin: what Steven did is wrong in the past. But he didn't know he was wrong when he did it. We have little knowledge of what happened in Tao village. From one of the flashback, we can see that he warned her that it will not be easy for them to escape once the soldiers came. We don't know if he had warned them and persuaded them to leave the business during his stay in Tao village. He was trained to uphold the law. To have extracted himself from the situation after falling for Suet may not be consistent with their professional code. At that time, he did not only do it for his job but also due to his belief that Suet's parents were wrong. We can see that he chooses righteousness over his godfather too. He can oppose his godfather who has raised him for twenty more years. It's no wonder he can oppose Suet's parents whom he just lived for a short period of time.

I agree that it was rather foolish and insensitive of him, but even he himself admitted it now. He admitted his wrong and feel remorseful for what he had done. He is trying his best to make up everything. If he can, he would probably turn back time and not betray them. If he can, he would probably bring them back to life. But he can't. What done is done, should he not have a second chance?

"If not for Raymond, Tavia might even have died. Steven made no attempt to find her or her body to ensure her safety.. instead he just resigned himself to the idea that it was not meant to be."

Agree for the first sentence, disagree on the second one. Steven was watching over Tavia when she soaked herself in rain after her fight with him. It shows that he still cares and wants to ensure her safety. Since he knows that she does not want to see him, he hid herself. After that, he went to meet Raymond to ensure that Raymond will take good care of Tavia on behalf of him (although Hin will take care of her even without his request). If you are referring to the time of when the Tao family is on the run, then there is some doubt since no flashbacks are shown. These days, I'm thinking about something, that Steven as the higher-ranked member of the operation would probably easily find out whether Tavia has been caught or killed before. Therefore, he may already know that Tavia was still safe hence his lack of worries. Of course, this is my speculation. Nothing can be confirmed until the series explained this span of time on Steven's part.

I think Suet will not easily accept Yuen. She promised her uncle to not have anything to do with Yuen. She also has Ting Hin to consider. So her feelings for Yuen will be pushed away in terms of priority. 

Well, Akazukin, has done a marvelous job responding to your first 2 paragraphs. Btw, Akazukin, you took the words right out of my mouth, except you said it better.

Now for the matter of the heart. the 3rd paragraph. Here's my say:

Everybody deserves forgiveness if he/she is truly repentant. Festering hatred will only shrivel up the heart and squeeze out the joy of living.

Before I have my say,
Listen once more to what Yuen said to Suet at the end of ep 13 - the words that Akazukin couldn't hear properly. He said: “I’ve never been happy ever since I realized that my annihilation of Dao village was a mistake because I know I’ve already lost what is most precious and important to me.”

In epi 13 ending scene:
I will call this scene the cleansing of two souls. Yuen is baring his soul to the woman he loves but whom he has knowingly hurt so badly that he is willing to die for her over and over again as penance. As he lies dying, he confesses his remorse to Suet, and Suet is receptive to his words. Death does have that kind of power to remove all kinds of invisible barriers.

Although Suet's eyes brim with tears, she is calm unlike how she was when she thought Hin was dying. There she panicked and was hysterical, stubbornly refusing to listen to him because she felt she had failed in her duty to keep him alive. Here her heart is connected to Yuen’s, listening attentively to every word he has to say to her. When he says he has never been happy ever since he realized his mistake, Suet says she knows. She knows. She knows he regrets, and she knows she now forgives. His dying confession rapidly cleanses the remaining hatred from her heart. She cries tears of regret, tears of forgiveness, tears of sadness, and tears of cleansing. In the past, even if Suet was ready to forgive, she can’t forget, especially the breach of trust. The imminent death of the man she had hated lies before her, - it’s the moment of truth for her heart - exactly what does she gain from holding on to her hate? What does her heart tell her? What more proof of his remorse and love for her than his dying words and deeds?

胜雪你知道吗,其实我希望看到你得到幸福,你相信我,亭轩一定做得到,我对你的伤害,实在太大,大的,大的就算拿走我的命,也无法弥补,自从我知道剿灭窦 家寨是一件错事,我就一直没有开心过,因为我知道,我已经失去了我最珍贵和对我最重要的... transcript by TVB情结 baidu Sits

Back to Yuen’s words, is she too going to be like him – realizing her mistake too late by being unable to forgive, thus losing what’s most precious and important to her. If Yuen dies, his death may seem to have avenged her parents’ death. Is that what she wants? Is that what her dead parents would want?

After that cleansing, emotional incident, can Suet really live happily ever after with Hin when her heart belongs to Yuen? Can Hin live happily ever after with Suet knowing that she loves another? How many years of happily ever after before she becomes a widow? How many years of happily ever after before she becomes only a nursemaid to him? Can one love compensate another? What does she want out of a marriage?

Hereafter, if Yuen survives, (of course, he will ) Yuen and Suet both know that their sweet, innocent first love has evolved to something different, more mature and more understanding. Suet will regain her trust in Yuen.

Btw, both Steven and Tavia did an excellent job in the ending scene. Steven's voice was choked up with exertion and emotion. 

Akazukin: I agree that people should forgive. Like Hin said, if Suet keeps hating Yuen, the one suffering is not only Yuen but also Suet. It's very painful to hate someone, especially the person is someone you also love.

Steven and Tavia did a great job in that emotional scene. His choked voice was what causing me to can't hear properly LOL, but I have watched again, now with the assistance of subtitle. I think it's very interesting that he said "I’ve never been happy ever since I realized that my annihilation of Dao village was a mistake, because I know I’ve already lost what is most precious and important to me.” Before he realised it was a mistake, he thought what he did to Sing Suet was hurting her, but he didn't think it was wrong. And since he wasn't wrong, he thought she would understand him one day, and be able to forgive him. So before he realised his annihilation of Dao Village was a mistake, he didn't think he has lost Sing Suet as he probably thought he still have his chance. No wonder he still dare to approach and confess his love to her in episode 3. But the reality is actually the opposite because it's not Suet who comes to understand his point of view, but he is the one who comes to understand her point of view.

I really like your analysis on the different ways Suet acted towards Hin's close death and Yuen's close death. My sister insisted that it was the same and I have been insisting it was different. Like you said, Suet was hysterical when it was Hin but was calmer when it was Yuen. But I have a rather different interpretation to why she behaved that way. I feel that she refused to hear what Hin said because she knows what he is going to say, she knows it's true but she can't accept it. He is her whole world at that moment. If he crumbles, she will crumble too. She can't afford his death, not when she is at her most vulnerable state. I don't think what makes her hysterical is simply duty, I think she does love him even if it's not the romantic love she has for Yuen. She wants to protect him and being unable to do so makes her panicked.

But with Yuen, it's different. She demands him to hold on. She wants him to stay alive to protect her, like every girl wishes from their prince charming. She was sad that he was going to die, but she wasn't hysterical because she will be strong enough to live on even if he died. It will be a regret, a wound, but she can live on. At what could be his last minute, she chose to put down the barrier and listen to him, care for what his feelings like how her heart would but was restrained due to the duty to hate him. She shut herself from being touched by his words and deeds all this while because of this duty to hate him, but at this moment, she opened herself up and is willing to understand him. To hear his confession at last minute is more powerful than anything because she may never be able to hear it anymore in the future. While she has every reason to cry at the thought of Hin dying, she pretty much has no reason to cry at the thought of Yuen dying except for love.

Has Suet forgiven Yuen? I don't know. Has she stop hating him? I think she has. Will she accept him again? I think it will be hard. Even if she is to forgive him, it's hard to forget that he is indeed the person that caused her parents' death. Can she disregard the feelings of being a traitor to her family if she is back together with Yuen?

How about her parents? Will they be able to forgive Yuen for what he has done? Will they want to see Suet with Yuen? If a parent's heart has it in it to forgive Yuen and bless their union, I think it should be okay for Suet to be with Yuen again, though as Suet, I think it's still very very hard to step beyond the fact that he is guilty for betrayal and her parents' death. 

"Can Suet really live happily ever after with Hin when her heart belongs to Yuen? Can Hin live happily ever after with Suet knowing that she loves another? How many years of happily ever after before she becomes a widow? How many years of happily ever after before she becomes only a nursemaid to him? Can one love compensate another? What does she want out of a marriage?"

I think both Hin and Suet won't be happy if they get married solely on business arrangements or as a repayment. That's why I don't want them to get married if Suet has not a slightest feeling for Hin. But I don't think going to be a widow is that much of a problem. Suet is strong, she will be able to live well knowing that her husband is a great man who has loved her dearly all this while. He might have died, but the beautiful memory will live on. Moreover, even if her husband is someone healthy, there is no guarantee that he will live longer than her or long enough. Sometimes it's actually better to have mental preparation than be left suddenly by the husband.

"But I don't think going to be a widow is that much of a problem." 
Tamaya:  Just that I'm not saying widowhood will be hard on Suet, though it will be, only that it is very unfair to her, especially when Hin looks like he's at death's door. If Hin indeed asks Suet to marry him just to save his family then he is being very selfish, putting his family's welfare above Seut's. But I can understand his reason, but don't condone it. Unlike Yuen who puts Suet's happiness above his own. Even when dying, his concern was Suet's happiness - therefore persuading Suet to marry Hin. A big contrast between these two men's motives for marrying off Suet to Hin. But what's this with them pushing Suet to one and another? lol!

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Akazukin: tamaya, I was just saying that it isn't that bad for Suet to marry Hin (from Suet's point of view). BUT it is another thing if we are talking about Hin marrying Suet to save the Wu family. I agree that if that happens, it's rather selfish of him. I think pegster also wrote about this in another thread (Allow me to quote her here for easiness):

 "if Ting Hin does ask Suet to marry him for the sake of his family when he outright knows that Suet still only has Yuen in her heart, then he's making a selfish choice.

Someone mentioned in a previous post, everyone does what they do according to their priorities, like Yuen arresting the Dau salt smugglers even though he loved Suet. At that time, 'righteousness' was more important then 'love', same thing with Ting Hin when he asks Suet to marry him for the sake of his family business, yes he loves Suet, but he's not marrying her because he loves her, he's marrying her because he needs her to help is family business, in this case, his family comes before Suet."

I just would like to point out that the difference is I would expect Ting Hin to give Sing Suet a choice (although you may argue that it's just a fake choice because he knows that Sing Suet will agree no matter what since she is indebted to him, but at least she is informed) while Yuen didn't even give Sing Suet a choice with him putting her before "righteousness". In terms of harms to Suet, I think Ting Hin does less. Losing parents due to someone you mistrust is so much worse than marrying someone about to die who loves you dearly and has wealth and status to probably be able to keep you going for the rest of your life.
Then, another difference is the once-so-dumb Ji Yuen wasn't so informed about his own deeds and decision, but the wiser and smarter Ting Hin should know of all the consequences of his own proposal.
As to whose action considering their state of mind is more excusable in term of love, I really don't know how to judge. The three's relationship is really hard to sort out, just like the AOD trailer said.
As to your comment about "what's this with them pushing Suet to one and another?", I have written something about it in Steven+Tavia+Raymond thread around the same time you are writing this here. LOL, funny how our mind can connect.
Tamaya: I'm speechless, nay exasperated at his suggestion. (re: bolded sentence) Where's that hammer? :noclue Men, regardless of timeline, can be so clueless at times. Suet feels all kinds of emotions for Hin, except for one: that intense love and irresistible attraction she has for Yuen. See how her tears silently roll down her cheeks as she suffers in pain when she heard that Yuen is leaving. (great acting on Tavia's part) Her intense sadness can only be expressed in tears, words are inadequate. Dumb Yuen. Faint heart wins no fair lady. I still say he is being popo mama regardless of his altruistic motive. Also, he is being very presumptuous to assume what's best for her. Let the lady decides for herself. Give her time. After all, if she had loved Hin as intensely as she did Yuen, she won't be in this dilemma now, would she? After all the choice should be a no brainer - a good all around man who loves her vs a man who caused her parents' death?
It seems to me that Suet's tears cried on Yuen's behalf were mostly shed silently? T Or is that how Suet cries? Except for the heart wrenching tears shed for her parents and during her jail time with Hin.

I still think it is bad/unfair for Suet to marry Hin regardless of the reason for it. Hin looks like he will die soon, very soon. The poor man has hardly any strength to even kick down the sedan chair down. So what kind of a marriage is that to Suet who is still so young. It reminds me of when a rich family needed a happy occasion to 'wash' away the bad health of their sick son. And the wife is the sacrificial lamb. JMHO.   

Akazukin: tamaya, Yuen has always been quite dumb *ahem*, no i was saying he was just quite clueless when it comes to reading people's heart. We can't blame him into making the conclusion that Suet chose Hin over him. He witnessed how she cares so much about Hin's gift while she gave no positive reaction to his hug in the temple. So what if she stayed with him for the whole night taking care of him at the temple? So what if she worried about his safety? How can he be sure that it's not just due to her kindness? The fact that she wore Hin's earrings is enough to show him that she has started to have feelings for Hin and made a progress to move on.

So what if she still has feelings for him? He knows it's not enough to make her accept him again. Actually, I think he has at least a tiny feeling that Suet still has feelings for him. Or maybe not, maybe he thinks she felt bad for him that she has chosen Ting Hin. That's why he told her not to doubt again.

I don't think he decides for her. It's just that he sees she is going that way and he sees that way as the good way, so he is voicing his encouragement even though it means sacrificing himself.

Suet: "We never know what will happen in the future."
Yuen: "Not really. Haven't you found your road ahead?"

Yuen: "Sing Suet, since you have chosen the right way, don't doubt about it again." 

"Perhaps he's leaving because 1) he can't bear to see Suet/Hin together and 2) he wants to make it easier for Suet to chose......

Akazukin: I pretty much agree with above poster, I personally feel:
1) He is a human, he still loves Suet so much but he feels unneeded there. Why is he torturing himself for by staying there? He maybe strong, but doesn't mean he has no feelings when his heart was stabbed seeing Suet with Hin. Waiting for something that probably is not going to happen while having to witness the two together during the wait is too painful for him to bear. He is a human after all.

2) Him staying in the Wu Manor will just make it hard for Suet. Even if she still has feelings for him, he knows that she doesn't want to be with him because of her parents. She still feels for him only because it's hard for her to forget him. If he stays, it will be harder for her to forget him. It will only cause more dilemma for her. Why not let her choose more easily? Since he knows that Hin has only done good to Suet and she is willing to give their relationship a try, shouldn't he move away to give them more space so the chance that their relationship blossom will be greater? Now, if he is gone, she would only have to think of Ting Hin. She won't be so tortured.

Why is Yuen being poma for trying to finalise her choice? Isn't Suet the one being poma for being unable to choose? But then again, when it comes to love relationship, one would often be poma.

Yuen: Didn't you already figure out your path?

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Dumb Yuen: Trust me, Hin is a good man.
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Is this the look of a woman who has chosen her path? Look at those eyes!
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Tamaya: Akazukin, Just to clarify, I used ‘dumb’ in a most affectionate way :tricky: for although I love Yuen dearly, I’m most frustrated on how he handles his love life. Actually, I think Suet did embrace Yuen back and fitted snugly too in his arms before she suddenly drew away. Honestly, images of sweet potato are haunting me these days. Previously because of the tantalizing preview image of Yuen and Suet laughing over their potatoes, I was so looking forward to seeing that sweet moment, but when did ‘potato’ now conjured up Hin? What kind of a cruel joke it that to Steven fans! "From these days onwards, we, Steven fans, do solemnly swear to forever abstain from eating that nauseating tuber." :strike
Yuen reads Suet all wrong because he is so filled with guilt that he thinks he does not deserve happiness; it is his karma for his sin. (sin of dumbness) That Suet actually forgives him is more than he has hoped for and deserved. He is his worse enemy, even to the point of thinking he deserves death if needed to make up for Suet’s loss. So with that kind of defeatist mindset, he distorts everything he sees and made decisions based on that distortion. Suet is at a crossroad, but dumb (affectionate term) Yuen shoves her across to the other side of the road without giving her an opportunity to look around and decide which route to take. He saw Suet wearing the earrings and quickly jumped to the conclusion that Suet has picked Hin over him. 

I personally think Suet wore the earrings as a stimulus to rekindle Hin’s sub-consciousness, not because she has chosen Hin over Yuen, at least not yet. Maybe I’m influenced by Yuen and Suet’s wedding screencap, but I think if Yuen had not held back during their embrace but had insisted on having a heart to heart talk with Suet about their feelings and conflicts, rather like a confession session with each other; things might have had turned differently. Suet might have rejected him but at least he knew, but I guess he did want to rock the boat. He is being dumb (affectionate term) not poma when he ‘finalizes’ her choice. Time heals everything. He could wait it out. Why have her married a dying man and be tied down for life. He is poma because of his faint heart. He loves but daren’t act on it because he is overly careful, overly analytic and overly considerate; therefore overly indecisive, until ironically he 'decisively' finalizes her choice. Love doesn’t work that way. But in the end it all comes down to him not forgiving himself rather than Suet not forgiving him, for she has already done so. I hope Yuen and Suet’s wedding screencap does not turn out to be another ‘potato’ irony.

Akazukin: tamaya, yup I liked to call Ji Yuen dumb in an affectionate way. Calling him dumb but thinking how lovable he is at the same time. But I don't think he is that dumb at that moment. I would think that any reasonable man would do what he did. 

I think he knows she still has some hesitance, that's why he told her not to hesitate anymore since she has chosen the good way.

Agree, she did before she saw the sweet potatoes. But does Yuen realise that? I don't think he did because at the first moment, he was too engrossed in his own happiness and that Suet is in his embrace that he probably didn't pay attention to whether Suet did hug him back. In his memory, he just knows that Suet released herself from his embrace and then go and wear those earrings Hin gave her. It is understandable for him to make that conclusion.   

I don't know if things might have turned differently because I think at that time, Suet has Ting Hin in her concern. In fact, I think it will be rather too pushy for Ji Yuen if he confessed one more time to her. I mean, he has pretty done his confession yesterday evening. Suet quickly said that she will get water, it's obvious that Suet purposely wants to avoid any confrontation about their relationship. Even if he did confess again, I think Suet's reaction will remain the same. She will walk away without responding or coming with an explanation that he shouldn't misunderstand the motive of her taking care of him. Besides, the dumb Ji Yuen was caught surprised and nervous at his own improper actions. It's clear that he was caught lost at that moment. He didn't know what to do besides nodding vigorously at whatever she said. So I don't think he has the logic reasoning nor the impulse to confess to her. After that, he is probably scared to start any conversation about it. I think he is afraid to get rejected. He doesn't wish to be rejected.

Time may heal but will it heal everything? How long does it take to heal the wound he caused her? And after the wound is healed, how long does it take to heal the scar? Does it take a lifetime? Or half lifetime? Will it be healed at the time Sing Suet reached her 30? Or will it be healed at the time Sing Suet reached her 50? 80? 100? What should Sing Suet do during the healing time? Waste her own youth? What if the scar remains forever?

Time is ticking, Sing Suet is not going to get any younger. Now in front of her, there are only two choices - Yuen and Ting Hin. Obviously in Yuen's eyes, Ting Hin is a better choice. If she missed her chance with Ting Hin, she will be only left with one choice - Yuen, or to remain unmarried forever. Let's not get on with the thought that another fine man may come along because the chance is slim.

Yuen foresees that the chance Sing Suet will marry him is very slim, to find another fine man is even slimmer, and to remain unmarried forever is not good. So when he saw she is leaning more towards the best choice possible at that moment, he encourages her decision.
"he is overly careful, overly analytic and overly considerate; therefore overly indecisive"
Doesn't love work that way? One in love can't see as clearly as third party. That's the way love works.   
TamayaFrankly right now I'm feeling quite deflated by the direction of the storyline. Also, I can only discuss about Suetyuen if and when there are scenes available for me to do so. Yuen seems to have been dispensed of in the story development. Anyway, looks like Suet has made her choice. That walk with Yuen is her goodbye to her past love. Can't imagine Yuen's reactions when he finally finds out.

Akazukin, sorry to have left you high and dry. I was too busy digging out all my potato tubers from my frozen vegetable plot to respond to your post. Apparently, over the weekend many Steven fans were suddenly afflicted by potato phobia. from Steven baidu





第三个:二少在那里奄奄一息说着要和胜雪做一对假夫妻,和离书都写好了……胜雪突然来了句:“不过我有一个条件”……(胜雪,你的条件是虾米,我以为她会 说,等你死鸟我要改嫁致远,我还想胜雪丫头你表这么直接嘛。)谁知雷焦我了一句:“我要和你做一对真正的夫妻~~~~~~~~~~~!!!”继而再来: “二少你不知道我对你的情意吗?”


作者:采苕 2009-1-26 14:19   回复此发言


Akazukin: I'm still on denial stage that Yuen/Suet won't end up together. Like cfsan, I still hope there is a misquote somewhere in Tavia's interview. Well, it's not that I don't like Suet Hin, I want her to have both, but if she can only have one, then I would want her to end up with Yuen.

I miss so much discussion during my vacation, but great to see a lot of posts while I'm away. Finally caught up to episode 22. Well, here is my share of thought:

The part where Steven found out that Tavia is marrying Raymond is so sad. We can see how hurt and reluctant he is despite him keep telling her to marry Raymond. I knew it, even though he told her to marry Hin, when that really happens, he will feel very unwilling. The poor man finally helped in his mother's shop to get him busy from thinking about Sing Suet. The poor man broke couple of jars when it's Suet's wedding day. An obvious result of trying not to think but his mind will always wander to the place that gave his heart a cut.

Actually, the way Suet got drunk makes me feel that she has far much more romantic love for Ji Yuen that she isn't very willing to marry Hin since she knows she will no longer have any chance with Ji Yuen. I mean, if Ji Yuen was the one she chose, will she get herself as drunk? I don't think so.

When Siu Yuen told Yuen that Suet loves both men. I can't help but to be touched yet sympathise with his expression of being suddenly so happy to find out that Suet still loves him. It's pitiable in one sense that once he has Suet's whole heart, now he only has a part of it, but he is still too delighted by this. It shows how much he loves her that he doesn't even mind that part of her heart belongs to someone else.

In fact, I think if Suet is the man and Hin and Yuen are the women, Hin and Yuen would be willing to share Suet with each other and let Suet marry both of them.

People said: Men follow their logic more than heart while women follow their heart more than their logic. I guess that's what make the two guys shoving Suet to each other. It doesn't annoy me as a viewer really, because I understand how they feel. Both of them wants Suet. But both of them want the best for Suet. That's the way they love Suet, the way good man loves sincerely. They are not selfish. And the good men don't have enough self-confidence. That's only why they can grow to be an even better men. Though it's only normal that Suet will feel very annoyed by them shoving her to each other. I don't think they did it for the other men though. I think they did it for Sing Suet.

Let's see:

I caused her parents' death.
She vowed not to be together with me before.
I'm not rich and my life is always in danger.
She chose Hin.

Suet loves Yuen more than me.
Yuen is capable of loving Suet more than me, even to the extent of protecting me for her sake and smuggling for her sake.
I had been selfish to her once.
I can't protect her as much as Yuen can.

I think if Suet told Yuen that she wants to be with him, he would immediately take her with him very gladly.
However, with Hin, even when Suet told him that she has feelings for him and wants to be real husband and wife with him, he declined because he has no confidence that she really loves him and not just to repay debts.

I don't know if it's just me but it gives me the feeling that Yuen doesn't mind that Suet has both men in her heart as much as Hin. It's like Yuen is satisfied as long as Suet has him in her heart, even if she still has another man in his heart. But Hin will only want to be Suet if he is the only one in her heart.

I really love the conversation both guys have at the end of episode 22. They asked each other the same question and both though didn't answer actually have the same answer. Their conversation doesn't reach any conclusion. And then, Suet came to scold them. Why did she come? Did she come for Hin? Did she come to tell Hin that now that his illness is cured, he should have no worry to be with her?

Steven shows many times that he is unwilling to let Tavia go even though his logic keeps telling him that he must. One scene is when he, being the righteous and proper man, came to the bride room to ask her to elope with him. How much courage does it take him? It's realy not easy. It's clear that he is acting on a big risk that she won't follow him. Siu Yuen told him clearly that she has BOTH men in his heart. What's the chance that she will follow him? 50%? Or less? It's clear that even a little chance, if given, he will take his chance.

To Yuen, compared to all his friends, he deemed Suet as his bestfriend, which means she is the most important to her. He still loves her but whether or not she chooses to be with him, he will still regard her as his bestfriend, as the most important one for him.
But what Suet say is more like they can only be best friends and nothing more. Yuen's expression when she said that is heartwrenching to watch. It shows how unwilling and hurt he is, even though he knows of it already.

I guess it has a lot to do with Steven's acting too. Everytime he said in episode 22:
Yuen: She vowed not to be with me in front of her parent's tomb. (We get to see from his face that he wished it was not so)
Yuen: Even if it's true [that she likes flower because of me], it's already a matter of the past. (We get to see from his face that he wished it was not so).

I feel very painful for Yuen that everytime he is given hope to reconcile with Suet, next his hope is taken from him. First was in the temple, and then after what Siu Yuen told him, and then Hin told him the marriage is fake. But in the end, he doesn't end up with Suet? Please let him end up with Suet.

Actually, trying to be more rational and impartial, it's very hard for Suet to be with Yuen because even after all Yuen did to make up for his mistake, even though his godfather is the real culprit, even though Suet and his uncle already forgives Yuen, he is after all still involved and still indirectly caused Suet's parents' death.

Darn, I should be preparing myself for a non-SuetYuen ending, but it's so unfair how Stevia series always have to have sad ending for Stevia. 
Tamaya:  In fact, I think if Suet is the man and Hin and Yuen are the women, Hin and Yuen would be willing to share Suet with each other and let Suet marry both of them.

In ep 22, don't you think poma is an understatement for their behavior?
Haha! It occurs to me that these men might be more in love with the thought of being in love than actually loving the woman herself. What do you think?

If a man has this intense, passionate love for a woman will he be really so magnanimous as to give her away to another man, no matter how good he thinks that man is? There inside us, this inherent, primordial possessiveness that lies deep inside us. It just boggles my mind that these two intelligent men could be so 'childish' as if they are sharing a toy between them.

 "How much courage does it take him?" Tamaya: to me, it was more adrenalin and impulsiveness than courage, after seeing Hin is at death's door. It suddenly struck him== what have I done to Suet? I've sentenced her to a lonely life of a widow. Now that she loves me, I should save her from such a life. And off he goes, on adrenalin and feet on wings. 
Akazukin:  It maybe spontaenous reaction from Yuen to enter the bride room. But I love him for doing so. The expression on Steven's face when he finds out that Suet is marrying Hin is priceless.

I still both men love Suet so much that they become poma, or if you don't mind an extreme word, they have become hypocrite. Didn't want to use that word but come on, isn't it clear that they both want her and unwilling to let her go yet they SPEAK unlike their hearts? But I think both guys should deserve some sympathy. In the end, they suffer more than Sing Suet. I mean, seeing two poma men who love you very much is better than the two men who love this girl so much, want her yet can't want her because they think they are not good enough. This struggle of possessiveness vs want-her-to-be-happy is torturing them. As I said, I believe their dumbness relates to them falling too deeply in the well of love. One just can't think as clearly as third party. Their love is what make them dumb, but lovable.

Tamaya: The men are scared to death of possessing her, because the thought of losing her is too painful to bear. Yuen did that once and it still hurts so bad, and then there's his mentality, he did wrong, therefore should pay for his sins and he definitely does not deserve a treasure like suet. To me, it seems like the men worship Suet like a goddess than a real flesh and blood woman that she is. They put her so high on a pedestal that they can only safely worship from afar. their for her is reverent rather than passionate. When Yuen becomes passionate towards here, she turns him away twice that we saw. So I can definitely see where Yuen's reluctance comes from. But Hin's behavior is beyond me.

"I don't know if it's just me but it gives me the feeling that Yuen doesn't mind that Suet has both men in her heart as much as Hin. It's like Yuen is satisfied as long as Suet has him in her heart, even if she still has another man in his heart. But Hin will only want to be Suet if he is the only one in her heart."
Very insightful and now that you mentioned it, I see it now. 

Akazukin: Yes, both Ji Yuen and Ting Hin are being too selfless when it comes to love. But isn't Sing Suet the same? Is the reason she choose Ting Hin because she loves him and yearns to be his wife? Or is it more likely that she chooses Ting Hin because she sacrifices her own romantic love for something more correct? And that something more correct being repaying her indebtedness to him, not being someone who is an indirect killer of her parents?

Three of them are making selfless decisions. Ting Hin decides for Sing Suet rather than letting her decide on her own because he knows that she was making a selfless decision and he doesn't want that. He wants her to be happy even if it means taking a freedom to choose from her.

Actually, both guys are quite the same in the way they love Sing Suet (provided the spoiler I just saw and read was not interpreted correctly by me or not true).

I think what they have for Sing Suet is both reverent and passionate love. If one only has reverent love, they won't be jealous but it's clear that both men show jealousy when they see Sing Suet with the other men.

This series' relationship is very complicated, but it's what makes this triangle feels realistic. It's because of the complicated struggle they have inside their heart, which causes inconsistencies in their behaviour sometimes.

 I notice I forgot to comment on the scene where Hin told Yuen that his marriage with Sing Suet is fake. I like how Yuen was quiet but is not indifferent about it. When he gave the divorce letter back to Suet in front of the Wu Manor. It's like he is waiting for her cues. He doesn't want to put pressure on her, but of course if she is willing to be with him, then he would be more than happy. Of course, she then said that she doesn't want to think about relationship at that moment and just concentrates on revenge. And he gave her space and obediently let her.

Actually, I think the reason Sing Suet let herself divorced from Hin is because she wants to focus on avenging her parents' death and this maybe dangerous. Otherwise, she may tell Wu Kin that she actually wants to continue being Ting Hin's wife. And Ting Hin would probably have to listen to his dad. But whether she loves Ting Hin romantically enough, this is still questionable. Sure, she was upset when he divorced her and told Yuen about it. But part of the reason why she is upset is perhaps because she feels that Ting Hin didn't respect her decision enough and didn't accept her effort.

When Ting Hin broke the news that his marriage with Suet is fake, Ji Yuen once again had a teary eyes. I couldn't fully grasp what he is feeling at that moment. Perhaps someone wants to spell out what he is feeling at that moment? tamaya? pegster? anyone? 

Tamaya:  My thoughts:
When Yuen was unexpectedly summoned by Hin to the house, he probably thought it was something to do with his godfather, but the strange situation with Dr. Lui's rambling on about Hin's illness had him very suspicious that it might be something more personal. His unease and suspicion were further reinforced by the couple's tension - Suet's distress and Hin's aloofness. He also had this bad, sinking feeling built up by the couple's little disagreement, which apparently concerned him too. Yuen was probably thinking that Hin at his deathbed was going to formally request him to take good of Suet after he's gone but that Suet didn't want to talk about his death just yet; something along that line. If it's that he could handle it.

So Hin's bombshell revelation of their fake marriage totally bowled him over; stunned; stupefied. Never would he have guessed that in a million years. So Yuen's rolling feelings and thoughts (tough to judge because the camera was on the couple, not him) were all too jumbled up for him to even comprehend, let alone sort and understand. The question: "Not married, how could they not be married? How? It's not possible!" probably ran amok in his mind. At this time, he had probably even tuned out suet/hin conversation until Hin pulled him back with his request of him taking care of Suet. That expected request he could handle. Did he feel a belated relief? Did he feel sad? Did he feel Suet's hurt? -- I don't think so, the shock was way so big for him to absorb right there and then that there wasn't any room for other emotions to coalesce into meaningful thoughts at all. He needed to put aside this bit of info for later digestion. Right then, a feather could have knocked him down.

Yuen: WTH is he talking about?

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Yuen: I can't believe this! It's not possible!
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Pegster: I'm not sure what I thought of Yuen's feelings when Hin told him about his 'marriage' with Suet. I was too upset at how Hin just went ahead and told Yuen the news without first consulting with Suet. I felt that he had no regards for Suet's feelings, and did not respect her at all. The same goes for Yuen, he didn't think about how both Suet and Yuen would feel. How would Yuen feel now, it's like he's the person in between Hin and Suet that's why they can't be together? So he wrote that divorce letter so Yuen can be with Suet, everything he's doing now it's for Yuen?
The only think I can think of going through Yuen's mind is 'shock' and 'confused'. He thought all along Suet wanted to marry and stay marry to Hin. Regardless if it's for love or to repay him, so he's already accepted that, and has now taken on a new role, Suet's guardian. Suddenly he has to Hin tells him, no, what you had thought before was all wrong, you gave up for nothing.
Again, Yuen is put on the spot and it's required to re-evaluate his stand and his relationship with Suet. Does he pursue her again, or push her back to Hin? 

Akazukin: Finally watched episode 23.
Did you guys notice that Yuen and Hin have different reactions when Suet suggested that she should marry both of them? Yuen was smiling and Hin was choking. But when Suet said she was just joking since it's impossible, Yuen's facial expression became dim. I don't know if it's just me, but it makes me feel that Yuen does not mind if Suet really marries them both. But Hin minds more. I guess it has something to do with Yuen thinking that Suet will probably choose Hin even if she loves Yuen more. This also shows when Yuen was sharpening Suet's sword and saw the chrysanthemum, he has a solemn expression on his face while Ting Hin was smiling when he saw the fireflies. If Yuen is to choose not being with Suet or being with Suet but have to share her with Hin, then he would choose the latter. Well, this is my opinion and others may disagree with me.

And I don't like the reason Hin died. Why did he have to stand and show up in the room to let To have chance to hold him as a hostage? I'd rather he died because of his illness. Anyway, still have to wait for the last two episodes. Not hoping to read anymore spoiler on those two episodes but I have a feeling I won't be satisfied with the ending because I always dislike open ending for romance. Though I sometimes imagine the aftermath, it's just not as good as viewing it with my own eyes.

I wish Suet was able to marry both guys like she suggested because honestly, I can see them three getting along just fine. The part where the three of them were travelling together was so cute and sweet. I also love how Suet rode on Yuen but I believe the reason is because Yuen is stronger to carry her like that while Hin may not have the strength. I love watching the happy face on Yuen's and then on Suet's during the ride and consoled that she didn't forget about Hin and the two guys are generous enough to each other.

tamaya, glad to hear that the last 2 episodes will be good to Suet Yuen fans. I'm looking forward to more of their scenes. And did you say you are not going to rewatch this series? Awww.... that's a pity. I want to rewatch this series again from the first episode once I get the DVD though, just on the Yuen Suet Hin part fastforwarding on the others' parts. 

Tamaya:  I notice that too. I think Yuen is used to this outspoken and naughty Suet back in Dou village. After all she did overcome her maiden bashfulness to ask him to stay. But Hin only knows the serious side of her, not the pulling your leg and fun loving suet.

And I don't like the reason Hin died. Why did he have to stand and show up in the room to let To have chance to hold him as a hostage?

So that he could be properly dispose of to die a heroic death, and have this "LAST SuPPer scene of reuniting the lost lambs of the wu family under one roof. Also,the scriptwriters were off the hook of having to come up with a Suet's decision of which man to pick. 

Akazukin: LOLing at your reason for Hin's death, tamaya. It's truly still not very acceptable for me. Seriously, there is no point having him recovering just to have him killed like that. The only thing that made the difference with him recovering is that we get to know Sing Suet still have difficulties making decision on which guy to choose despite Hin having recovered. 

Do you think why Yuen was smiling and Hin was choking when Suet suggested that she should marry both is simply because: I think Yuen is used to this outspoken and naughty Suet back in Dou village. After all she did overcome her maiden bashfulness to ask him to stay. But Hin only knows the serious side of her, not the pulling your leg and fun loving suet.

Yes, Yuen is used to the outspoken and playful Suet. But I don't think Hin only knows the serious side of Suet. When Suet first made sure that Hin drank his medicine after persuading him not to commit suicide, she was rather playful too.  

yoyo 365 I dislike the fact that they made a martyr out of Hin, yes he's the good filial son and he's all great and everything, but he was well again. Why kill him off when you decide to cure him? I'd rather Suet have to make a decision rather than being relegated to one since Hin died. I for one would have loved to see who she would end up choosing. Now in some ways you almost feel as Yuen got the "leftover" feelings or something. (Can you tell I'm biased? ) 

Akazukin: In some way, I sorta dislike how Suet does not make any decision in the end about whom to choose between Yuen and Hin. But then, if Hin didn't die, I think the chance that she would choose Yuen is very little, even if she still loves him the most (romantically). I think it's obvious reason as to why this is so, so I won't go into length about it. I think both Hin and Yuen are kind of aware of that too, that's why their reaction at the night before their operation to convict To Ying Long are different. Yuen looked sadder holding onto the flower and Suet's sword, while Hin was smiling at the sight of fireflies. Unconsciously, I think they might know what the outcome probably is going to be. But we also get to see that Suet told Siu Yuen that she is not going to hurt any of them, and that probably mean choose none of them (which is the most stupid decision which is commonly present in TVB series, because I think she will only hurt both of them by doing so. Why make the three of them sad while two of them could have been happy?).

So I think, would I prefer she chooses Hin or end up with Yuen without choosing, I think I prefer the latter. After all, Yuen is aware and accepts the fact that in Suet's heart, he is no longer the only one. It's sad, really, but then it's his fault. He brought it upon himself. Now, he is happy enough to know that she still has him in her heart. He is very understanding when he witnessed Suet reminiscing about Hin on the seashore. Being able to be with Suet, I think he is already very thankful. Their relationship is really very bittersweet.

I still don't understand why he couldn't come clean about it with Suet before Hin died. But I totally understand Suet's reaction being told about it on their wedding night. I think she just needs a time alone to think things through and to let her wound heal. 

 Yeah, the firefly in the snow mountain is too insensible and illogical. Even though they want it to represent Hin, I wish they would find a more sensible way of doing it.

I guess the snow mountain is to give a colder and more depressing feeling to the ending. I reckoned, had the setting been in a spring field, it would have been more beautiful than depressing. A hermit doesn't have to live in a snow mountain, a secluded plain will do, especially since she is only trying to avoid certain people, not people in general. But then, what would they do to the themesong lyrics?

Steven and Tavia did very well in the ending scene, and throughout the whole series. Their chemistry rocks!

From their facial expression, I think it's implied that they will end up together too. 

Tamaya: Yoyo, I totally agree with your comment, especially this word, “leftover”. (Aptly put like the Chinese idiomatic pin prick that draws instant blood) Its usage precision so aptly pinpoints my unsavory, lingering flavor of this series. And after reading Akazukin’s post, the after taste just turned rancid.

Before I get off my rocker into the deep end with my incoherent, torrential outpour of angst over Suet-Yuen, let me say this: Stevia’s acting skills were top-notch; their chemistry, palpable; but their relationship and the ending have left much to desire. So far, Sits is the only Steven’s series that evokes in me this nebulous but lingering feelings of ill-humor, of dissatisfaction and of non-closure; all very indescribable in words, even now.

Disclaimer: I’m a Steven fan, so obviously I’m biased towards Ji Yuen. So non-Steven fans, please bear with this crazed Steven fan’s ramblings, which in the end, may or may not be going anywhere.

I dislike how the series focuses so much on the triangle love entanglement. I want to see how JY, a good and a superior man at that, redeems himself not just by ultimately killing his godfather but also making the world a better place to live in. And definitely not for him to hide himself in a godforsaken, mountain cave that only a firefly can find in that white expanse of wintry wilderness. I certainly did not relish watching JY been brought down to his knees (figuratively speaking) begging for scraps of leftover love. Know that I’m not blaming Suet, for Yuen’s predicament is his own doing; but surely, there’s much more in life than romantic love, especially for a man of JY’s caliber.

Leftover feelings: Its connotation is so apt yet so sad in its usage on JY, a man of superiority in every way: intellectual, appearance, character, and competence in work, in martial arts and literacy. His future has loomed bright and clear into the infinite horizon where a good and prosperous life awaits him. But of his own doing (or was it Fate’s joke on him?) his life is inexplicably and inextricably derailed into uncharted and heartbreaking territory from the yellow brick road that he had been traveling.

Steven poses a valid question: Is the triangle relationship of Suet, Yuen and Hin a mortal tragedy or is it karma? My disgruntled ramblings:
How/why did such a superior man now await a mere woman’s leftover feelings & love?
How did such a previously well-favored man(by fate) lose so much of himself in the name of love?

Is Yuen love for Suet worth the high price he had to pay?
I really don’t think so, especially with what he got in the end. If he had not loved Suet so much, life for him will continue as before. A sham it was, and sooner or later, it will be exposed, but perhaps without Suet's involvement it will end differently. What's that Chinese saying about women being troubled water? I know, I know, it's all Yuen's fault! If only he didn't love Suet so! Conclusion: It's that darn cupid with its stray arrows.

Love is supposed to build up each other, but Suet/Yuen’s love is not only tainted but demolishes each other. There’s just been too much water under the bridge. How to harness that torrential, murky water which now carries the martyr body of St. Hin? Yuen is just a mere man, a good man no doubt; but even a good man has his own limit, can he be forever reminded of his ‘wife’ torch (a flaming one at that) for another? Can a living being compete with the sweet memory of a ghost, a sainted ghost at that? Can love truly overcome all things: guilt, loss, anger, betrayal, familiar love, sadness?

If JY had died, would he be considered a Shakespeare tragic hero?
Shakespeare tragic hero is someone who:
The hero discovers his fate by his own actions, not by things happening to him.
The hero sees and understands his doom, and that his fate was revealed by his own actions.
The hero's downfall arouses pity and fear.
The hero is physically or spiritually wounded by his experiences, often resulting in his death.
A tragic hero is often of noble birth, or rises to noble standing
The hero learns something from his/her mistake.
The hero is faced with a serious decision.
The suffering of the hero is meaningful.
Shakespeare's characters illustrate that tragic heroes are neither fully good nor fully evil.
Through the development of the plot a hero's mistakes, rather than his quintessential goodness or evil, lead to his tragic downfall.

For myself, if a character had to die then, I would much, much rather that Yuen died a heroic death. That way, there will be closure for me as a Yuen’s fan, and I could now and then sigh over a beautiful love story that wasn’t meant to be. I loathe the image of him (like a pitiful puppy) begging for leftovers from woman who cannot or will not give him her whole heart, because she reserves it for another man.

Will Yuen's over indulgent and selfless love for her backfired, ultimately incurring her contempt for him. Women want to be loved, not idolized or handled with kid gloves.

But the preferred ending for me will be that no one dies in the end. Suet marries Hin, and Yuen after giving them his blessing, left to carve out a new world for himself and to pursue his personal happiness. Love is not everything in life; there are much more important things to live for. I’ve no idea what Yuen is doing in the cave. And really, I don’t care to find out why, because the ending has no rhyme or reason to it, leaving behind it a lingering after taste.

I still don't understand why he couldn't come clean about it with Suet before Hin died. But I totally understand Suet's reaction being told about it on their wedding night. I think she just needs a time alone to think things through and to let her wound heal.
 Akazukin, Why would anybody lie? Because of the fear of repercussions. Yuen was frightened of losing Suet and thought he could live with a lie. But the sudden appearance of 3rd uncle at the wedding banquet showed him otherwise. 

Akazukin: I understand from your point of view as Steven's fan that it's only natural you feel so. If it had been Tavia who is on his shoes, I would probably have said the same thing too. Rather have the chance of finding something new which belongs fully to you rather than having a "leftover".

While I totally understand where the "leftover" notion is coming (i.e. one of the choice that becomes the only available choice (leftover choice) or what Hin can no longer have, Yuen can have), I think what Suet gave Yuen is not a leftover love. From the beginning til end, Suet's feelings for Yuen, her love for Yuen is not a leftover. It has always been there since it exists the first day.

Surely, a hero is often depicted as having great intellect, martial arts, appearance, character, literacy, righteousness and competence in work. But on top of that, I actually like Yuen's "lovesick puppy"ness because it makes him very unique from other heroes you often see in the TV series. I have never seen a hero, being one who has held very strongly into righteous value, willing to go the distance to curb his own conscience to go commit an illegal dealing just for the woman he loved even though she is at that moment the wife of another man. That really highlights his romantic side, which is truly another good quality from him.

Besides, if he is to give up Sing Suet (especially when Hin died) just because she no longer have him only in her heart, it will seem like a form of his men pride and selfish possessiveness getting in between his love for her. Comparing the two, he should actually be more admirable the way he is in SITS, able to love unconditionally.

Moreover, it's not like Yuen slumped into useless depressed person when Sing Suet went off to marry Hin. Surely, he felt sad, but he was still trying to be a filial son all the way. Yeah, he worked in a common soy sauce shop, but like what he asked the noodle seller, what's wrong to be an average joe? He just wished that he can live his life free from guilt. He knows that being an official, he will have to face with guilt. Life is not all about love, true, and I think Yuen knows that and he acts like one too. He didn't go commit suicide because she married someone else. But still, love is very important to him, and Sing Suet is his only love (romantically). This also shows his faithful and loyal side, which should be another good quality of him that people admire.

Why can't a hero sacrifice such length for his loved one? Why is he deemed lower for doing so than if he sacrifices to save an unknown person or for the public in general? By sacrificing for his loved one or begging for her love, he has not hurt anyone. Why is such hero considered weaker or "reduced"? I think being able to love her loved one and accept her knowing that half of her heart belongs to somebody else is a form of strength. Is it worth his time more to save the public general than Sing Suet? Despite Sing Suet needing him more at that time? And him being the only one that can help her, while there are other heroes who have been working for the good of the public knowing where to start and already in the middle of doing it?

I guess, what I want to say is, by being a "lovesick puppy", Ji Yuen do not appear less strong at all as compared to other heroes who put their political agenda before their romantic love. In fact, it makes him more special.

Stepping one step back from the writer's point of view, I bet they feel bad for Ting Hin and afraid that they will totally piss off Ting Hin's supporters, so they decide to give half of Sing Suet's heart to Ting Hin. They didn't come about showing Yuen doing righteousness elsewhere, because the series is about Sing Suet Salt Village (originally, even though they change the title later).

The ending left so much to be desire for me too. But I won't want to see Ji Yuen died. Heck, I don't want to see Hin died such a heroic death either. I'd rather he died due to his illness. But like I said before, my image of Ji Yuen is a loyal protector of Suet, someone she can always depend on. If he is to die sooner than her, he will sorta defeat that image for me. That's why I don't want him to die before Suet. 

Not that we will ever be able to find out why, but in no way would I imagine him to be living as a hermit there. No way. He is probably just passing by, for whatever reason. Because no way they lived near each other for two years and never found each other. And sheesh, why should he live there as a hermit? Who is he trying to avoid? His mom? Even if he is trying to search for Sing Suet, the logical way is to search for her, everywhere, and not live as a hermit. And while searching for her, maybe he did righteous deeds to whatever circumstances he come across, who knows?

And let me repeat this once again, him going after her and accepting her despite knowing she has part of her heart for Ting Hin only shows Yuen's generosity. In no way it makes him less heroic.

I understand why he kept the secret after Hin died. What I don't understand is why he kept it from Suet when Hin was still alive.  At one side, he told Suet to choose Hin because he thinks Hin is a better man. Why not tell her that extra details to convince her?  

Tamaya:  To me, the metaphor of leftovers means more than just the variety and inferiority of choices that are available; it also means that it is strongly flavored with yesterday’s vestige and memory.

In the beginning, Suet love for Yuen was a full, complete course of a scrumptious meal nourishing her whole heart and soul, but was later voraciously consumed by another, leaving behind JY the leftovers. Yes, Suet has feelings for Yuen but these feelings are just a vestige of what they used to be. And yes, one may say Yuen is lucky that she even retains some feelings for him. But I just hate this image of beggars can’t be choosers. I would much rather she didn’t love Yuen, so that they both are free to pursue happiness eleswhere. But love is not logical. 

He is all that you say and more, but I feel for him so, because I ‘luv’ him. Just like how a possessive mother hovers protectively over her child, wanting the best for him. (metaphorically speaking, of course) And I did say before that JY is a better person than I am?

 And surely you remember the vendor’s response – an average joe will walk the average joe path, and in my eye, JY is no average joe. He is favorably endowed with God’s given talents and competence and intellect, therefore has the responsibility to be more than just an average joe.

What do you think of this statement: Forbidden fruit is the sweetest. Men are a glutton for punishment. Why does Yuen love Suet so? What’s so good about her?

That’s the thing, I don’t even see JY as a hero at all; he hasn’t convinced me as one in the true sense of being heroic thru actions. JY’s actions are selfless and righteous all right but heroic they ain’t. Moreover, in the course of viewing, I would much rather the storyline had something more substantial for the viewers to discuss rather than revolving on this triangle love angst, sparking explosive speculations on which man will get Suet in the end. And I definitely did not relish watching two grown men, superior in everything, being so timorous and indecisive in their love for Suet.

Not going to zap whatever leftover, half dead brain cells I have to speculate on how JY happened to be in the cave or what the heck a firefly was doing in a snowy mountain. I think the scriptwriters had less brain cells than I have right now and just gave up. 

I knew there must be more to your previous question--- well, he could not bring himself to tell her. First, he still values Suet’s opinion of him, so didn’t want her to see him as a murder. A lie to himself as well as a lie to her. The detail had no purpose then. 2) he has said he didn’t want to hurt her unnecessarily with this extra gruesome detail. A suicide is the victim’s decision to make unlike being killed by another.  

What so heroic about that act? It's more like his love transcends 'normal' romantic love; the closest this kind of love humanly possible is a mother’s love for her child.

To me, the metaphor of leftovers means more than just the variety and inferiority of choices that are available; it also means that it is strongly flavored with yesterday’s vestige and memory.

In the beginning, Suet love for Yuen was a full, complete course of a scrumptious meal nourishing her whole heart and soul, but was later voraciously consumed by another, leaving behind JY the leftovers. Yes, Suet has feelings for Yuen but these feelings are just a vestige of what they used to be. And yes, one may say Yuen is lucky that she even retains some feelings for him. But I just hate this image of beggars can’t be choosers. I would much rather she didn’t love Yuen so that they both are free to pursue happiness elsewhere. But love is not logical.

Akazukin: Perhaps... but that kind of story is already done elsewhere, i.e. LOW.

The thing is this series wants to depict this difficulty of love triangle, where all the parties are good humans (even though they may not be perfect) but situation has made their relationship so wired.

Besides, if Yuen is to move on and pursue "happiness" elsewhere, isn't he only repeating what Sing Suet is doing currently? Will it then be fair to their "new" love if they ever going to be ones? Will they be able to transfer all the love they currently have to that "new" love? If Sing Suet has it in her heart to move on from Yuen and Hin to another new love, I will find it less effort for her to move on from Hin to Yuen because it will be moving 1/2 (or less) to the other 1/2 (or more) rather than moving 1 to another 1.

Are we sure that Suet's feelings for Yuen are only remnants of the feelings before his betrayal. All this while when they spent their time together facing all those risks together, are we sure that their feelings did not develop further?

Is Yuen a beggar just because he pursued someone he chooses to? Yuen is a chooser himself, he chooses Sing Suet, he chooses to be with Sing Suet rather than moving on. It's his choice. 

What's God give is up to God to use. At least, that's what I believe. The current circumstances did not show any opportunity in which Ji Yuen can use his talents in other way yet. There are still a long road ahead for Ji Yuen. Maybe... he is an average Joe now. But maybe due to being an average Joe, he found his road to use his talents someday. I believe, when it's your fate, the road will find you. Meanwhile, it doesn't harm to be an average Joe that works hard in his job.

Ji Yuen decided that at that time that his talents are to be used to help his loved one. He had no direct emergency calls from the public yet. Not sure why he loves Suet, because we didn't get to see how they fell in love. But then, like you say, love is not logical. It's those non-logical love that is most unconditional. When you have reason, the reason will often be the condition to your love.

This is from my biased opinion: Suet is pretty, he was touched at the way she treated him when he was being a spy at the Tao village, they spent a lot of time with each other and time makes love grow.

You said Yuen's love for Suet ruined him. But actually, it's due to his love for her that he starts to open his eyes to the darkness behind the officials. In a way, it builds him. If he had not met Suet, he could probably still working for a corrupted official while still thinking that he is doing it for righteousness, making a fool of himself. What didn't make him die make him stronger. Sure, he took a slump, but after that, he is a better man because he has a better perception. 

I don't think the show is about the love triangle. Surely, it takes up a part, but I reckon the main concentration is still on the salt business. Wu Family took up a lot of screentime. Now that may not be something more substantial from Ji Yuen's fans' point of view. In the end, this series is not about highlighting a hero called Nip Ji Yuen, but highlighting on salt business. Just that the points we often discuss is on their love triangle.

I still feel Ji Yuen's inner battle of conscience vs legality is an interesting one. Just that we didn't dig that out much. He is not heroic? How do you define heroic? Does he have to always put political agenda on his first list to be a hero? Or he has to constantly saving random people? Is Yiu Sau Jing a hero to you?

Let's see Ji Yuen's history of deeds:
Ji Yuen sacrificed his love in order to capture the illegal salt trader because he reckoned the world can only be peaceful without them - people discharge this as his responsbility as an official, worse they see him as a love traitor

Ji Yuen distributed the illegal salt to the villagers - he earned the comment "he is crazy"
Ji Yuen protected Sing Suet to the a-z extent - he is a lovesick puppy (not Sing Suet's hero?)
Ji Yuen tried his best to help them with the capture of his own godfather - he only captured one person, and that person has a personal ties with him (not considering this as the hardest test of a hero's heart?)

Poor Ji Yuen seems to never impress anyone with whatever thing he did.

Given the circumstances he is in, what should he do to make him a hero? To Ying Long - he has a part in hunting already. Should he kill another greedy official? Great, but who? Should he left Yangzhou to travel around and help those on the way? Who takes care of his mom?

Perhaps he should join Yiu Sau Jing team when he was first offered? But he owed To Ying Long. Even the character in Smiling Proud Wandered Lingwu Chong hesitated a lot of times when he was to asked to oppose his ex-master.

Maybe because Ji Yuen had not done any special extraordinary achievement in the series, that's why he is considered less heroic. But given his circumstances (i.e. the script), he has nothing much to do. He has the potential of course, but I think the reduction of the appearance of his heroism does not fall with his loyalty in love, but with his circumstances/surroundings.

Perhaps, it maybe more accurate to say that the series doesn't try to depict Ji Yuen as a hero. It only tried to depict him as a good-hearted righteous fine young gentleman who is caught in between the delusion of black and white in this world. 

I'm not saying that accepting Suet even though knowing she has also someone else in her heart is a heroic act. What I mean is it doesn't discount/reduce his heroicness at all (if you have found one in the first place).

As a side note, it shows that he has a generous heart, and hero is often associated with a generous heart.
Hmm... how about comparing this to Lingwu Chong, Kiu Fung, and more who tried to commit suicide when (he thought) his loved one died?

As a conclusion, I think maybe... romantic love counts little when it comes to measuring a hero (of traditional definition).

But if Ji Yuen left to find "happiness" or way to apply his talents for justice, there may also be others who complained that he is just running away from unsolved problems. Seems like this guy can never satisfy everyone with whatever he did or route he takes.

Tamaya: Woah!
There’s nothing like different opinions over a controversial character to inflame passions and lengthy response! Lol! Well, our tenacity, if nothing else, is praiseworthy, don’t you think? Honestly, under the barrage of your eloquence, I had this very strong urge to frantically wave a white flag over my head, and kowtowing for your benevolence. I wonder how in the world did I find myself inexplicably and forcibly retreating into a corner sounding like a JY detractor, which is far from my intent. Yeah, I could have fooled you, right? Anyway, JY has so much hurt in him that it is almost painful for Steven fans to watch him, without wanting to extricate him from his predicament as the story unfold. I thought I was crazy to be so driven half-crazed by a make-believe character until I realized that the whole population in Steven fansites was so afflicted with this craziness, too and for that matter, the Hin population in Sits baidu, too. Lol! With that said, I do thank you for doing the merry-go-round of words with me. Although, in a moment of sanity, I do think our energy, and your verbal prowess could be applied with better results elsewhere. Lol! 

Ah, but in the case of Yuen’s new love, she has never tasted the full course of his love, therefore what one doesn’t have, one doesn’t miss; hence, the subject of unfairness doesn’t even come into play here. 

Who knows what Suet’s true feelings are when she herself can’t even decide. But I’ll go out on a limb to say they are remnants indeed of what was once part of Suet’s pure and innocent love for Yuen== because first and foremost and most important, trust and the purity of the ingredients are missing. Trust which is the most important in all relationships is broken & gone. Suet may learn in time to trust Yuen again, but his betrayal will always be in the back of her mind.

Will write more, but meanwhile real life intrudes. Btw, Yoyo, you of sound mind and sanity, you did say you were going to post your thoughts on Suet/Yuen’s relationship this weekend, right?! 

Akazukin: Yeah, and there is nothing like a controversial character which is so well acted out that make us care so much about him to invest such a long time and effort in thinking and writing of our different opinions.

I am too inflicted with this craziness. And I don't even know which population I belong to, maybe Suet's... with a preference for Yuen. Amazing what great actings do, they make us absorbed too much into the characters and the series.

I truly enjoy discussing this with you so I hope you don't mind me being so long-winded. Applying my breaths elsewhere, I have not had the intention so yet, because it takes flaming passion to write this long.
Actually, I am often so baffled by your impressive writing that I have to take moments to collect my own thoughts and think of how to express it. Though we have different perspectives, I think your writing has inspired me in so many ways as I find them true, just that it is seen from a different perspective.
Great difference you found. You think subject of unfairness doesn't come into play when it comes to new love, but do you think it is when it comes to Yuen losing half of his originally owned love?

I think unfairness comes when you give in full yet only get half in return. The new love may not have tasted the full course of their love, but then it doesn't mean they would not yearn for it. It doesn't mean that they are not hurt. It's simply obvious that Hin is very troubled by Yuen/Suet's past lingering love. I believe if Yuen is to have new love, she will so be troubled too.

In a way, it is not fair for both Hin and Yuen's hypothetical new love since pain is inflicted on them without any wrongdoing from their part. Yuen, on the other hand, had it full once, now due to his own doing (doesn't matter that he wasn't "fully informed" when he did so, he made a choice, a wrong one he said), he missed half of her love and suffered due to that. That, he suffered because of his past wrongdoing. If subject of fairness is talked about here, I think Yuen had a fairer dealing, even though his being more regrettable because he had "power" over the outcome.

Borrowing words from Steven: is it karma? Is it tragedy? Just like black and white, sometimes it's hard to distinguish or perhaps it has elements of both. He did wrong, therefore he receives punishment - this may sound like karma. But he didn't know what he did was wrong, and when one doesn't know, he doesn't sin (according to chinese saying). If he does not sin, should karma of punishment be fallen on him? Element of tragedy, it definitely has, for someone so righteous has to do such a huge mistake that he himself cannot reverse when he realised that what he did was a mistake, and he wouldn't want to do that mistake if he knew.

But talking about suffering, I think Hin (and therefore would Yuen's hypothetical new love) suffered no less than Yuen in terms of heartbreak from Suet's split love (even though I reckon Steven did better in showing it), although the exact feelings they suffered maybe different.
But if the original "trust which is the most important in all relationships is broken & gone", then it becomes more likely that Suet has developed further feelings during the span of the series, because by episode 17, she has trusted Yuen again when she asked him to become her vice. That trust is a new one and not a reignited one since the old one is already broken and gone. I believe, with that seeds of new trust for Yuen growing in Suet's heart, seeds of new love is also growing in her heart.

I think Suet has let down his "betrayal" from her mind by episode 13 when he was dying from the plague. Before that episode, she has slowly seen and understood his standing why he did what he did. It's not only Yuen who is opened to her perspective, Suet is also opened to Yuen's perspective. Even in the last episode, she didn't blame him for his "betrayal" or even causing his parents' death. What keeping them away from each other is just Suet's duty of being a filial daughter. 

Tamaya:   Meanwhile, have a laugh at this 【打油诗】(limerick?)
Must be composed by a Yuen's supporter. And he's a male. :loool:
And I would add this 粉丝是疯狂滴

 编剧是YY滴,    添哥是凑合滴。剪接是混乱滴,本剧是海发滴。

Akazukin: Wow, that fan must also belong to the group of what you called 粉丝是疯狂滴 to be able to write this long about the series. Hehe... though I disagree with some verse written there, most of them are good. 

This is such a random costume used for such a random setting of the ending by TVB. Tavia's Ko Wa's costume bothered me, because I don't like Ko Wa and Ji Yuen's Flying Fox of the Snowy Mountain bothered me, because I don't like Wu Fei. But heck, I love Sing Suet and Ji Yuen. Seems like a lot of viewers are frustrated with this series, but it shows that they care a lot. 

for lots more discussion goto sits asianfanatics ji yuen and suet thread
 and screencaps goto sits screencaps album

Tamaya: why I would not be watching SITS anytime soon because watching Ji Yuen's pain will break my heart all over again. That's why! For Ji Yuen's suppressed love for Sing Suet, for his hurt and his guilt and disillusion, for the destruction of his world and life, for him being the quintessential tragic figure. I think of all Steven's series, Ji Yuen was the only character that made me want to pluck him right out of the whole tragic story when watching it at the time, and to sprinkle some happiness dust over him just to see him smile. One of Steven's most brilliant performances to date.

Like the Chinese saying goes: 演戲的是瘋子看戲的是傻子
(Actors) Those who act are lunatics; (audience) those who watched the performances are idiots. (As to feel for something that is all make-believe.)

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