Saturday, November 20, 2010

Ghost Writer: Questions on Sum Yu's Ghost

Akazukin: 09 July 2010 - 03:05 PM I feel that I will be in the minority who is disappointed with the ending. It sort of feels typical of TVB that by the end of the series there are many loopholes and the ending adds even more loopholes.  asianfanatics: ghost writer

Tamaya: Wah! Open the spoiler door, and plink plink plank plank, the word avalanche fell on top of me. Ouch! Sorting out the words will keep me busy for a while but still much easier done than sorting out and formulating my own thoughts into words. Keep in mind, Akazukin, your memory of the series is fresher than mine so I might remember incorrectly. But am really sorry you didn't enjoy the finale episode as much.

Akazukin: Firstly, a] I can't help but to notice the inconsistency with the tangibility of ghost. At first, PSL can't see Sam Yu and not even Siu Tsui can think of a way to make PSL see Sam Yu except for letting Sam Yu possessing her body. But then later, when they came to court, all the people can see Sam Yu so easily. If they could have seen Sam Yu so easily, why can't PSL see Sam Yu with the same method.... b] I think this person also raises a very interesting point: PSL can see Sam Yin's ghost but can't see Sam Yu's ghost. Why?

Tamaya:  a] PSL can’t see Sum Yu because at that time he didn’t invoke her ghost with the method that he & Gou Jit used on Sum Yin. Siu Tsui really doesn’t know how to materialize a ghost. But later, when people can see Sum Yu’s ghost, it is assumed the same method used on Sum Yin’s ghost has been successfully performed on Sum Yu. too. It wasn’t Siu Tsui who made Sum Yu's ghost appear, it was through PSL invoking her ghost by opening the umbrella where she resides until then.

b] Initially, PSL et al couldn’t see Sum Yin either until they invoked her ghost by performing that specific ghost manifestation rite – burning the flute etc. Presumably that rite must has been done before the court hearing.

 Akazukin: It doesn't matter whether it has to be Siu Tsui that invokes the ghost appearance (which she can't) or a special method was used to make Sam Yu's ghost appear. The fact still remains the same that there is a method that can make Sam Yu's ghost appear. Since the method exists, whoever that performs it does not matter, it should have been performed earlier as later. Besides, in the Paint factory, Siu Tsui did kind of invoke Sam Yu's ghost the same way that PSL invoked Sam Yu's ghost in court, and that was before she disclosed to PSL that Sam Yu had died.

The reason why they couldn't see Sam Yin before they invoked her ghost is because Sam Yin's spirit was trapped in the flute, probably because she had been staying in the flute too long. She couldn't go out until they burned the flute.

Tamaya: I thought PSL didn't know that Sum Yu has died, because Siu Tsui refuses to tell him, that's why he can't see her initially, although he can feel her. And of course, he has no idea where Sum Yu's spirit was trapped, not until I guess Siu Tsui tells him. I guess when they died, they have to right away find something to reside in if they wish to stick around.

PSL can't see ghosts unless they are invoked by the special method, can he? So naturally PSL can't see Sum Yu, either just like he can't see Sum Yin, even if she wasn't trapped in the flute.

Akazukin: What I mean, is, if Sam Yu needed to be summoned on a specific technique, be it. I can't see why it can't be performed when PSL asked Siu Tsui to let him see Sam Yu. After all, the way that PSL summoned Sam Yu was performed the exact same way that Siu Tsui summoned Sam Yu in the Paint factory. Since it's done then, why not at the time when PSL asked her?
Tamaya:   Because that takes time -- what is the stuff they need to invoke a ghost? PSL wants it now, instant gratification. If Siu Tsui has not agreed to it there and then, PSL would have probably used that method. 

 Akazukin: Instantly? Uhm, he didn't say so though. He just said he wanted to see Sam Yu, he didn't say and scream now. Besides, I believe if Siu Tsui said that he had to wait because she needed to prepare, he would agree. 

Tamaya:  Goodness me! That poor man's face is drenched in tears, how can Siu Tsui resist, especially feeling so guilty. Besides, PSL truly believes ST has the power to let him see SY. After all, she is a fox spirit, right? And PSL has come back from death himself, so he is believer in her power over death. Of course, he didn't dead unlike SY, but that didn't matter. Moreover, so devastated he is at the moment, not even sure if he has the presence of mind to do that complicated procedure of invoking a ghost. He probably has to re-read the book again, like how I need to read my recipes every time I bake a cake from scratch - can't remember the measurements. But then it seems the steps and measurements in the procedure of invoking a ghost are less complicated than baking a cake.

Akazukin: It doesn't seem that the procedure to summon SY by the 'normal' method will be complicated. It didn't take much time for them to summon her in court. It's just calling her name and open the umbrella. Poof, she comes out. Or Siu Tsui could summon both of them to dream. I'm pretty sure she can do that.

He only needed to read the book once to get the trapped Elaine out of the flute. After that, they don't need to do anything complicated. They don't need to burn the umbrella etc.

PSL came back to life not just by Siu Tsui's power, Siu Tsui couldn't have done it without Siu Tsui's granddad.

 Tamaya: Baidu GW thread on why Sum Yu's ghost can be seen but not Sum Yin's ghost, similar to our discussions except for one very important insight -- it must be night time for ghost to come out.

Two conditions to see ghosts 1) the ghost must immediately find a host to reside in, and someone must invoke it. 2) night time. I omitted ghost manifestation takes place at night.

And it is during daytime that Sum Yu first look PSL up. And since she didn't know she is dead, she did not find a host to reside in, and be invoked by a human. And it is daytime that Siu Tsui told PSL of Sum Yu's death. And unable to turn down PSL's piteous pleading, Siu Tsui's let Sum Yu's ghost possessed her. But later before the court hearing at night, the invoking procedure was performed duly.

 Akazukin: Well, even if PSL touched Sam Yu, it's not really Sam Yu she was touching. It was Siu Tsui. And I am not convinced that he can't wait to see Sam Yu, that's why they have to do it right away. Besides, Siu Tsui didn't even say that he has to wait. She said there is nothing she can do except to lend her body. Nothing she can do kind of imply that there is no way at all, be then or now.

Talking about Sam Yin's ghost, it makes me even wonder why Sam Yu's ghost can go out in daytime (under an umbrella), while Sam Yin must go back into the flute when daylight comes even though she was in a house. It's hard for me to believe that umbrella will provide better shelter from sun than a house.

When Sam Yu first went to find PSL, wasn't it at night time?

Anyway, I'm still not convinced that PSL can't wait at all, and Siu Tsui's saying that she can't except lending her body does suggest that there is no way at all instead of no instant way.
Tamaya: All conjectures from watching the series:

"When Sam Yu first went to find PSL, wasn't it at night time?"
My bad, it is night time but still two conditions must exist for ghosts to be seen by naked eyes: appear at night time and have to be invoked first from a host.

It is nighttime but SY didn't know she has died and has not found a host to reside and has not being invoked so PSL can't see her.

Sum Yu's ghost under the umbrella is not an invoked ghost that has materialized as solid apparition. So sunlight will not vaporize apparitions that can't seen by naked eyes as it would on materialized apparitions seen by naked eyes because the former have no forms unlike the latter. Sam Yin's materialized apparition must return to the flute during daytime, but maybe her non-invoked ghost can wander in a non-materialized form in broad daylight? Didn't say she couldn't, right?

Akazukin:  In previous films about chinese ghosts, ghosts can never reside under broad daylight (whether they are visible to humans or not), the only exception is for them to walk under an umbrella. However, Sam Yu's ghost can even stay outside in broad daylight without an umbrella. If the scriptwriter wishes that the rules of ghost is different in PSL, they should have explained or stated, but they didn't. They should thank fans for trying to explain for their loopholes. However, how plausible is this explanation? If ghost can wander freely happily on broad daylight providing that they are not in solid apparition, I bet Sam Yin would have gone a long way to see his beloved in that unsolid apparition form. Yes, it was neverly expressly stated that Sam Yin can't wander in a non-materialized form in broad daylight. But it's also the fact that she never, and was always so afraid of broad daylight. The fact that she never implies that she can't wander in broad daylight, with or without solid form. 

tamaya:  Akazukin, You've had your say and I had my say, and going to leave it at that.
But Yeah, you're right, it was unfair to accuse Siu Tsui of Sum Yu's death. I stand corrected

As for the ghost thingy, you probably know more than I about such things since I haven't watched that many Chinese ghost stories. It was merely a conjecture on my part so will not belabor on it.

Maybe non-materialized ghosts can't wonder too far from their place of death? That's why Sum Yu can be close to PSL because she is in her place of death?

Sum Yin is afraid of broad daylight because she is in her materialized form?  

Akazukin: Yeah, we each have our says, it's fine to have different opinions sometimes. We don't always have to agree.

As for the ghost thing, I'm too lazy to analyse anymore. LOL. The series has already ended so it doesn't matter anymore.

asianfanatics22  Posted 09 July 2010

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